Steven Cohn 0:00 And that's going to result in a higher trial upgrade and a higher product lead sales upgrade and higher customer retention and higher expansion. The purchase decisions are a result of achieving value or the perception of achieving value. Right? If a customer doesn't renew, it's because they don't feel like they got value from your product, right? You know, it's not a complicated thing to diagnose, like you pay for things that provide value to you, and you stop paying for things that don't provide value to you. Max Matson 0:38 - Introduction Welcome to the very first ever feature product podcast where I max Matson interview founders and product leaders from the most exciting AI startups to give you an exclusive glimpse into the workflows, philosophies and product journeys that are shaping the current AI landscape. This week, I sit down with Steven Cohen, serial entrepreneur and founder at Winware, an AI platform that helps your customers achieve their goals with your products, addictive analytics. With all that said, let's dive right in. I'm here today with Steven, co founder and CEO of when we're AI, which is very, very exciting new AI startup. Steven, would you care to tell us a few words about your company? Steven Cohn 1:17 Sure. So the problem that when we are solves so the theory behind Winware is that for SAS products, customers will sign up and users will sign up to a SaaS product because they want to achieve a goal, solve a pain point, whatever that is, right? Product and design teams and engineering teams build features and solutions to those goals. But if customers don't use those features, they're not going to actually achieve their goals. Right? Whether that's a product lead growth, or product lead sales, kind of, you know, trial upgrade process, or whether it's customer retention, ultimate success for the customer for the end user relies upon using certain parts of the product. At scale, it's really hard to know whether customers are actually using the parts of the product they need to use to achieve their goals. So to have their success. So what Winware does is we use machine learning to generate playbooks, product adoption playbooks based on customer goals. And we then automatically track and message customers and or account owners. Or by customers, I mean end users or and or account owners of the of whether they're using the product that they need to in the right way they need to use to achieve their goals. Max Matson 2:53 Got it. So you're basically helping to align the outcomes that the customers are actually looking for, with the usage of the product. Steven Cohn 2:59 That's it, it's really simple. So like classic example, if I sign up for a SaaS product, almost every SAS product is the same way. They have an onboarding guide tool tip, they use Pendo, or FAQs, or any one of these other tools. And everyone has the same exact onboarding guide. Right? And it's always the same. It's like feature feature feature feature feature. So my guess is, I haven't seen stats on this. But my guess is, most everyone does what I do, which is you read the first one, and you get another pop, hit next, you get another pop up, you're like this is a little disorienting, I don't like I don't really know what, why this, like, why these features, you're just telling me about features. I'm going to hit skip. And then I never actually go through the onboarding guide. Yeah. So I skipped to the end, or I hit next, next next, and they get to the end. And those popups go away because it's spam. And I still don't really know how many of these things aligned to my needs. And the reason why is because it's one is generic, everyone gets the same onboarding. Tooltips and two, there's nothing that connects this feature to my needs. It's just here's a product feature. Here's a product. And I think product teams assume, wrongly in my view, that customers actually understand they understand how this feature will solve my need. Right? And I don't think customers always make that connection. And that's why you have like in any type of plg motion or product, lead sales motion. You don't have like super high conversion rates. And it's because people don't always connect the product features that they're using, with their ultimate need that they're trying to solve or their ultimate goal they're trying to achieve. And so what Winware does is it makes it transparent. We start with what is the customer's goals. What do they want to achieve? What's their pain points they want to solve. And oftentimes, we talked to companies and it's sitting in a CRM somewhere. Or it's not an onboarding, you know, onboarding guide, you know, or like an onboarding checklist. So sometimes when you sign up, there's a checklist as what are your what's your goal? What do you want to achieve? And that goes somewhere, but it doesn't really do anything with it. Or, if it's a sales lead motion, the salesperson will almost always ask, what's your what's your goal? What are your pain points, right? And they'll put it in the CRM, but then nothing gets done with that, right? Customer Success teams do that all the time, right? Succeed? It's kind of customer success one on one, what does success look like to you? The problem is that either sits in the success tool, or in a PDF, or some sort of Google Doc or something like that. Right? And so you know, you for success, you know, in your quarterly business review, you can come and say, Well, you said your goals, were these these and how are we doing against those goals? Not so good. Right? Right. And that's what a customer health score does. Customer Health says they stop logging in, they're unhealthy. Well, they're unhealthy, because they haven't connected yet how your product features are going to help them achieve their goal. So they stopped using the product. Now you're playing catch up, now you're playing now it's no reactive. And so the idea is, is like if we can use, if we can build adoption playbooks around the customers goals, right. And we can, we can help you automate messaging, and tracking and alerting and nudging and all these other things around this is you said, you said, this is your goal, you bought this product to achieve this goal. There's four things you can do that in our product to really help you achieve this goal, you've only done two of the four. Right? It's not about we want you to use this feature. It's about we want to help you achieve your goal. You know, when I get when I get product, new feature updates, for SaaS tools, it's all the same. It's here's a new feature we launched. And I'm always reading and I'm like, I think I get why this is important to me, but I don't fully get it. And the problem is, is because like internally, we think about these things, so much we talk about these things for months, we plan these things, we build these things, we iterate on these things, and we just assume the customer understands, right? What like how this feature is going to make their lives better. And it's not that because that's what we're that's what we do in product, we want to build product to make customer our customers lives better, and their make their jobs easier, make their lives better, all that stuff. The problem comes is that customers don't always understand what that new feature is going to do for me and my goals. Max Matson 8:13 It's not personalized, it's not personalized, everyone gets the same product. Steven Cohn 8:17 Now, the reality is is like probably 50%, if not 80% of the product, new product releases. I don't need to know about right, because that's they don't serve my need. So So adding them into one generic email about all the product was that mean? It means that I'm gonna read it, right? It's Spam. It's just, it's so much clutter that I lose the things that are important to me. And I just, I just hit like, it's just overload right. Now, why do we do that? We do that because we don't have great understanding and segmentation and automation around. This customer has this goal. This is the stuff we need to do to get them to achieve that goal. Max Matson 9:04 Right. Steven Cohn 9:07 And that's what Winware does, so what Winware does is we build your product adoption, whether it's your onboarding guides, we can use your existing tools, whether it's your product marketing, we can use your existing tools, whether it's your in app, messaging, all that type of stuff. We basically we center all that around the customers goals. And we basically dynamically say, okay, Jenny Jones has this goal. She should be using this feature that sent her an email this email sequence in HubSpot, let's send her this in-app guide in with App cues. That didn't work. Let's put a nudge in the account owner ces leader with a specific recommendation. Reach out to Jenny Jones about this feature because it aligns to her goal. This feature can help her Jenny Jones achieve her goal she hasn't. We sent her an email, we sent her an inept guide. She hasn't used it yet. Right? All that data is sitting in a product analytics tool, or in a in a customer record, or whatever it is. But the problem is at scale. It's hard for a CES person, or in a plg motion, there's no person, right? Or in a product lead sales motion. They're still they have a lot of accounts, they're doing demos for new accounts. So it's hard to proactively have that conversation. Right? And I know this pain point, specifically because I'm a four time founder and so my last company we were in for over seven years. SaaS product called Validately we sold it in 2019. To UserZoom successful outcome build, it ran at over 100% year over year growth for three straight years while being cashflow positive. So, you know, very healthy company growing fast stealing market share, and we ended up getting a good exit from it. But we had this we created this MVP for when were at my last company to solve a specific problem. And it works. It works. Like there's no question it works. If you align your messaging and your product adoption to specific customers aligned to their specific goals. You will get healthier customers proactively and better business outcomes, whether that's trial upgrade, product-led sales upgrade, or, or customer retention or expansion. And it's just it's logical when you think about it, right? It's like, it's the ultimate thing is people pay for things that provide value to them. Max Matson 11:56 Right. Steven Cohn 11:57 And so, you know, if you open up a SaaS product, there's like, so many things I can do. But the majority of which I don't need, because, you know, I don't have that. I don't have that goal. I don't have that pain point. I can see how that might work for an enterprise customer, or that might work for this other customer, whatever it is, but it doesn't need for me, I don't need that. Max Matson 12:18 Yeah, no, totally. This is a problem that I've seen with a lot of a lot of plg companies, right is they have the features, they have personas. And that's kind of where it falls apart. Steven Cohn 12:28 I would actually argue that the personas are incomplete. And that's where the problem is. So there's a there's a, there's a concept for called psychographic instead of a demographic, right? So so how people think, what's their what, like, what's their goal? What do they want to achieve? And, and so personas often stop at like job titles and things like that. But really, the reality is, it doesn't matter, right? It's the concept of like jobs to be done. Right. Right. Which is another way of explaining the same point that you know, is more as kind of a popular jobs to be done concept. When I sign up for a SaaS product, there's a job to be done. When I purchase a SaaS product as a job to be done. There are certain features that can help me do that job. I only care or I majority only care about those features. I don't care about anything else, right? Don't tell me about anything else. Don't mess it don't don't clutter my inbox with any other product announcements, I couldn't care less, because I'm telling you that my job to be done is is x, I don't care about Y, Z, A, B and C, only care about solving X right now. Now, there might be an expansion opportunity. Because if you asked me what my priority was, and I said it's x. And then six months later, you asked me, you know, are you feeling good about these parties or any of these other things priorities? I might say actually, now that I've solved X, Y is a priority for mine. Right? Right. Wonderful. Thank you for telling me that. Would you like would you like us to show you how we can help solve why to I mean, it's a different module, you have to upgrade for that, but we'll get into pricing later. Let me see. Let me show you how I can actually solve y for you. Yeah. That's how you create expansion opportunities. Right, right. Right. Now, obviously, you know, you know, it's the same. It's the same thing for whether it's a seat based thing or whatever it is. The point is, is like, ultimately, I have a goal to achieve I have a job to be done. And if if your persona does not capture the job to be done the goal to achieve the pain point to solve, it's all the same thing, right? If you're not aligning that product adoption, and both proactive messaging through these other tools that we talked about, as well as tracking and reporting, then you're not, then you're not going to help customers be successful, and you're going to constantly be putting out fires, right? You know, and that's the problem with with health scores with customer all scores for, for CES tools. The problem is, is like they're usually almost all needed at a time. They're usually based on high level signals. Customer support tickets, NPS scores, logins frequency, and maybe two or three kind of big, big features, or whatever it is. The problem is, is that that's after the fact. Right? If they're not logging in, if they haven't logged in, in six weeks, sending the alert saying they haven't logged in, in six weeks, is nice. I mean, it's better than nothing, right? I'd rather No, like have some sort of proactive thing is like, Hey, this is what am I, what am I doing with that? What do I do with that is calling my manager saying, this is a big account, they haven't logged in, in six weeks, or they're not using it? Let's set up a call. Right? And now you're playing catch up. Now you're now you're it's just an inefficient way. And the thing is, you haven't hooked them on there. They're the habit forming feature. Right. And you have to do that from day one. But that is aligned to what their specific goals are. Right. And so, you know, ces teams will have a kickoff call. Right? So the, for whether or not for the tech touch for the for the, you know, named accounts will have a kickoff call, and they'll say, okay, great, what are your goals. And so to achieve your goals, you have to do this. But there's also some integration pieces we have to do in the kickoff call and all this other stuff. And you go through a whole bunch of stuff. Right. And hopefully, you document it somewhere. But there's nothing that really tracks and understands our customers using the things they need to use to achieve their goal, right. And so then you get an alert when they're not logging in, or they're not using the, you know, they're not doing doing, you know, they have a bad NPS score or something like that, right? It's like, well, now, I'm now playing catch up. Right? Max Matson 17:30 So you guys are shifting it from being a reactive measure to a proactive one. Steven Cohn 17:34 That's the biggest thing, because, because ultimately, once, once and and so in a reactive, so reactive. Alerts are helpful, not great, but helpful in a human touch scenario, a named account for a plg or a tech touch, you know, scenario, there's no, there's no react event, there's nothing to react to it. Like there's no one there's no person to react to them anyways. So you're just losing, that's just a term. And so the i, t, I mentioned that we did this MVP with my last company, because the reason why is because we had churn for SMB customers tech touch. And I was like, why we had, like, our enterprise customers were awesome. The NRR was phenomenal, you know, gross retention, net retention, all best of class, we're doing great. They were growing like crazy. Our trial upgrade was was good. We had churned with SMB. And I was like, what is that, and that's where we basically kind of did this very manually to try to figure this out. And we found out that it works and we just, we need better automation for and that's basically what we created with Winware. Max Matson 18:55 I see. I'd love to hear a little bit more about the playbooks themselves. I'd just love for you to break that down a little bit more. Steven Cohn 19:03 Alright, so here's a here's what a playbook is. Okay, so the idea with a playbook is if you have a product, okay, let's take a product that's like really well known, like Figma. Figma is like the gold standard for it's like they're crushing it right now for for design, prototype, or whatever. But there's a lot of things. There's a lot of goals you can achieve with Figma. Right? So I asked my when I was when we originally kind of working I was talking with my head of design, Ariane, who's amazing head of product design. And as like, look, think of it this way, what's your goals with Figma? Use Figma. You chose Figma... she's like, okay... My goals are one: I want to kind of create usable design so people can look at the designs and click through it and understand it. And two: I want to better collaborate with my team. And I'm like, Great, let's stop there. Let's just use those two goals. You have those two goals for that. Now, there might be three or four or five other goals with enterprise customers and all these other things that you might have. And let's just pick up those two goals. So for creating designs, there's a set of features that you should use to really have that best experience of creating a usable design that really captures. So there might be a couple of new things that they've done a couple of things. And they really want to make sure you try those five or eight things that would really help you create designs. Right? Now for collaboration, that's two, there's two ways. So one is your state, you need to share it out, you need to have it in comment mode, they need to maybe use the app mentioned, you know, you need to maybe reply via email, right, there's like a bunch of different features that figma is created for collaboration. We should track that and put that into some sort of like playbook and see whether you're using that and having success with that. Now, if you get to the contract renewal, and you feel like you're doing a great job use, you know, being successful with, with, with creating usable prototypes, very happy there. But you're not getting great team collaboration, your churn risk, right? Now, let's say you're in this slack channel for designers, and someone's like, I just tried this new tool. My stakeholders love it, I'm getting more collaboration than I've ever had before. And you say, interesting, let me try it out. And you try it out. And you're like, actually, I see how they're, they're doing collaboration differently. And, you know, it makes a lot of sense. Now, you're a big turn. Now, you're going to turn I mean, you're you're even though you're logging in, even though you're using the product, even though you're creating designs, your churn risk, because we're not achieving your goal. Max Matson 21:54 Absolutely. Steven Cohn 21:55 And, and so that is the leading indicator, right? That Are you using the features you need to use to achieve your goal. Right, is the leading indicator is the proactive indicators, the proactive way of tracking and understanding? And does that make sense that answer what a playbook is that makes perfect sense. Max Matson 22:17 Yeah, I, you know, this has kind of been a trend, I'd say, with with AI startups of recent right it's like, we've reached this saturation point where data is, you know, near complete, right, for a lot of us data for everything too much data. And right, the question is, how do I monitor what matters? That's something that we actually are working on at PlayerZero as well, it sounds like you guys have a very refined answer to that is how do I determine what the data point that actually tells me in the future? What's going to get somebody to turn not after they've turned? But exactly. Steven Cohn 22:50 Exactly, exactly. And then how do I how do I proactively avoid that? Like, how do I proactively right, you know, do it and I, to me, it feels different. If you say to somebody, Hey, we just we just created this new thing, you should try it. Maybe I'm kind of busy, right? Versus we just came up with this new way to help you better collaborate with your developers. Actually, that is a thing I'm interested in, I really need to collaborate better with my developers. What's the feature? What but I mean, the point is that specific, that's my goal. That's what I have a specific goal for. And if you explain it that way, I'm much more interested in trying your new feature, does it for me, you now need it, why it's why it helps me, as opposed to, here's this new feature, and everyone gets the same thing, whether you care about collaborating with developers or not, you're getting the spam from us, right? Or you're getting this email from us, or this inept guy from us or something like Yeah. And, to me, that's a big part of where you know, the gap that's missing. And where you're getting where you're getting, you know, fall off. Max Matson 24:03 No, it makes sense. I mean, it helps you maintain that that brand image that you want to read, you don't want to be spamming up people's inboxes just getting them the stuff that actually moves the needle. Yeah. Makes perfect sense. So kind of on the AI front. First of all, I want to say, it's very interesting to me that you kind of develop this at your last company, right? Because I find that tools like this tend to be the most useful when they're born out of a direct use case like that, right. First of all, would you mind just telling me a little bit more about that? I find it really interesting. Steven Cohn 24:34 Well, how the MVP for that came about? Max Matson 24:38 Exactly, exactly. Steven Cohn 24:39 Yeah, so. So the last company was a user research and usability testing product, we competed directly with user zoom and user testing, which, interestingly, are now one company. UserZoom bought us, but they then after that they merged with User Testing. So now it's just one big company, but If we had a specific niche that we did differently, but it would you would, you had a panel, you could test test prototypes or designs or do live moderated sessions. You could once you saw we had a panel you could use, we had a screen recording you could use for mobile or desktop, there was a side feature where you can take notes and annotate. You can create highlight clips, highlight reels and reports, right and share different parts of it with with your team stakeholders. What we found through an analysis was that customers in the SMB segment that took notes in our platform, always renewed, it was like the stickiest feature we had, we did some sort of statistical analysis to figure that out. And I did that personally as the founder. And so then I interviewed customers who took notes. And I said, Well, what is why is that. And they, they spoke to different reasons, like why and they get in, they said all the things we would hope and it kind of aligned to their, what their what their hopes and goals were with, with a tool. But basically, that feature was that sticky aha moment that turned it from a tool to like my research hub. And that's what I really wanted as a research hub, I want to have one place where I can store all my, my notes, my videos, my clips, my all this stuff in one place. That was a goal that I have with this product. And then we reached out to other customers who didn't use the feature. And we interviewed them and say, Why are you not taking those in the platform, you should be taking it somewhere, right. And they're like, "Yeah, we don't use it because of these other like usability and product things." Which is great feedback. So then we we started making adjustments to the product and design, some of which were like really minor stuff. And then we started promoting it more to that customer segment, who had that goal, like we asked him like is this goal you have. And we found not only an increase in behavior, but an improvement in the business outcome. So customers more customers in that segment, we're using the note taking feature, especially after the changes we made. And those customers were renewing at a higher rate than prior. So now we're like, oh, my gosh, we got to double down. Right. So then we started redesigning the whole product around this experience, and becoming that research hub. And then we got acquired. But but the idea, but we proved there was that, if you understand, like the correlations between business outcomes, and features, and our customer goals is all about understanding what the customer wants to achieve, right? The only reason for me to use a specific product... there's a reason why you chose Zencastr as a tool versus something else, is something that you want to achieve with your product, your content marketing. That Zencastr helps you do it better than zoom or any other recording tool, because that's a commodity that you could use. There's tons of tools out there for screen recording, but there's something that you have a goal or a need or a pain point that you need to solve that you believe Zencastr helps you solve. And my guess is like a lot of these other companies that do something similar, haven't when you signed up to try them out, didn't ask you what those goals are. Yeah. And so they didn't show you how they can actually solve that need. They might have been able to solve it maybe even better than Zencastr. You didn't discover that on your own. You didn't make that connection on your own. So you chose you chose Zencastr, and now you're probably locked in because it's there's a lot of lot of content in there. Max Matson 29:07 Right. Steven Cohn 29:09 And so, that was how we did we figured it out. Like we like I just got I as a founder got tired of seeing churn from this one segment. And it was interesting. The churn emails were the nicest emails, ya know, that, you know, part of me was because we were our customers were designers, but they were, you know, and researchers, but they're like, they're like, We love your product. We're canceling. Right? You know, because I was like, you know, because people loved our product, like, like, we had great NPS. We had really great customer satisfaction scores, stuff like that. For us, it was like why are you churning if you love our product? And the reason why is because they weren't understanding how it can become their research hub. and how they can have rely upon that legacy information and use that legacy information. They ran their usability tests, they weren't planning on doing usability tests for for another, you know, three months or whatever. So they would turn and some often come back. Right. But, but you know, and we, you know, we weren't also getting expansion opportunities, because we weren't able to connect that to other teammates that had the same goal, right, and weren't achieving that goal with other companies. So that was the MVP that we figured it out, we figured it out. And then we, we just, it was so manual, and so time consuming to figure that out. And then to automate the playbooks and then, you know, to run the playbooks and to monitor the playbooks. But ultimately the playbooks with Winware are geared around the customer's goals, you can have multiple goals, by the way, but the customers goals. And the theory is if we if we specifically designed a set of user actions in the product that aligned to the customer's goals are proactive and messaging that to them and proactive. And in tracking and monitoring that and creating nudges and alerts, we're going to, we're going to do a better job of delivering value to that customer. And that's going to result in a higher trial upgrade, and a higher product-led sales upgrade, and higher customer retention and higher expansion. The purchase decisions are a result of achieving value or the perception of achieving value. Right? If a customer doesn't renew, it's because they don't feel like they got value from your product, right? You know, it's not a complicated, you know, thing to diagnose, like, you pay for things that provide value to you, and you stop paying for things that don't provide value to you. And I can tell you that as someone who's a CEO who bought spy software, right, it's not a complicated decision, like, why are we paying for this? What value is it providing for our organization? Do we feel like it's really solving that? You know, and the biggest mistake that product teams make is they think that the reason why customers turn is because a competitor has some other feature. That's not really why customers turn unless there's some sort of game changing, completely dynamic that ultimately, if a competitor comes out with a new feature, and I'm a customer, and I'm using a product, we're getting value out of the product. And they have that other feature, which is pretty interesting. Actually, what I'm more likely to do is talk to my account owner and say, by the way, we love your product, we're not going to turn but like that seems pretty compelling. Can you guys are you guys? Is that on your roadmap? Because switching the process to switch software is a huge waste of time and resources. And the last thing I want to do with my organization is waste their time switching to a new tool. Right, right. Exactly. If I'm switching to a new tool, it's because I'm not getting value out of my existing thing, not because there's this other cool thing that I think would help also, right? That's not to say I don't, I can't see other things and be like, that's actually pretty interesting. Let me give that feedback to my product team. I'm not going to turn from that reason, if I'm getting value from not getting value out of my existing product that I'm using. Then it's really, it's really easy. And we're not getting any value out of this thing. We really need this. Let's try this other product. Max Matson 33:48 Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I love that. i It sounds like you guys really have broken it down to, you know, parameterizing the actual behavior, right? So what is the one thing one, two things that are really providing value, basic fundamentals, and then how do we just maximize that? Right? I totally agree with you. I mean, product teams are all about the new features the new, flashy, exciting thing, but it's really what moves the needle. Steven Cohn 34:15 Exactly, exactly. Right. It's just going deeper and deeper into that one or two value props, that actually changes their experience. That's it. So you know, as an AI team, how do you guys see your product, changing the way that product teams actually go about their work? Great question. So the one of the biggest challenges you actually touched on it really, really, just a couple minutes ago, which is that, but you said it really well, which is that product teams are awash in data. There's so much data, and the signal to noise ratio is extremely hard. And it gets even harder when you start breaking down personas in different customer segments and stuff like that. I can't tell you how many companies I've spoken to who said we have defined personas, we don't do anything with them. We spent $30,000. For a consultant to come in and define these personas, we don't do anything with them. Why is that? It's not because they don't see value in it, they understand conceptually that there's value in understanding the persona. It's just that it's just so laborious to take that next step. Yeah, to me, that is a classic example of where machine is better than human. Because a machine can run 1000s of permutations, 1000s of different queries, and reject all of them and not be tired, right? If you look at any of these great analytic tools, Pendo, amplitude Mixpanel, all these great tools, Heap, Looker, Tableau, all these, they're all the same thing. They're query builders on top of a structured database, the assumption is that a human logs in, defines the query they want to run and hits run, and you get a great result, you get a great report, the challenge is that humans don't know what they don't know. Right, right. And there's also a limits on how much they're going to log in and run the queries and go from there. So there's limits to their understanding or imagination of what they can come up with. And there's limits to like, the time that they're going to put into it. And so where machine learning comes in is that we can we build an algorithm that basically can ingest all your product analytics data, run all these different permutations and queries, until you like, actually, this thing you thought was important isn't that strong of a signal. These other things that you haven't even talked about or thought through are like extremely strong signals, customers, now, only 2% of customers are doing this, but those customers are like your stickiest customers, you should really pay attention to this and try to drive more usage of these things. These other things are table stakes, like it's kind of good, like, but there's no real strong signal there that it's gonna do that. And, you know, understanding that for this customer segment for this persona with this goal, is where I think machine learning, you know, really adds a lot of value. And that's why we're investing she learning. Max Matson 37:29 That's awesome. It makes perfect sense, right? I mean, kind of from your explanation of how it came to being, like all that manual work that you were doing to to answer this question. I feel like that's the goal they read is to replace that with, you know, the sequence of, of automated processes, that takes care of it for you. Exactly, yep. Awesome. So then last question is just real quick. How do you guys use AI to build your product go to market to do you know everything? Steven Cohn 37:59 Yes, great question. So we don't use it for our product yet, because we're so we're just getting started. So we don't have enough scale for an AI model. Do you need some kind of scale and kind of usage for an AMI AMI not a ton? You know, you a couple 100 customers, you know, type of thing, but you need some you need several we're still in the early stages we just recently launched. Where we do use it. Our marketing team uses it a lot. And you know, I've actually, I just used it with it with a customer of ours. Who, here's what they did they have they're like, Oh, this is great. We have customer goals in Salesforce. But it's just freeform text. Yeah. I was like, okay, cool. Export that for me. So that she ran a report exported, you know, customer name and customer goal out of the field. I took out the the customer name, I just got the customer goal. I uploaded that to chat GBT and I gave a command and said, organize these into pairings of five. And it within 10 seconds it came back and said, your customers have basically these five goals. And then I got it. I sent it to her. She's like, this is awesome. This is amazing. This is really, really good. She's like, I can think of maybe one or two more. But this is like a great start like as so we took what we did is we basically took all this freeform text and use chat GPT to organize it into a summary basically, in a way that took 30 seconds and would have taken a human hours to do right. And so now the next step is turn those five goals into more structured data in the CRM. So now the CSM could say, this goal, this goal, right? And we can use that structured data going forward to drive playbooks. Max Matson 40:09 Awesome, man. Yeah, that's, that's exciting. It's pretty amazing when you really, when you have the infrastructure, right, how much you can add with all these tools? Steven Cohn 40:19 Oh my gosh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's interesting, I think a lot of people are scared of AI, I think that it's going to open up humans to use more of their what makes humans like unique and dynamic. You know, and it's going to, you know, I mean, through history, there's been innovations that have every, you know, always have been like, this is going to end, you know, humans, you know, you know, the printing press, and like, all these things were, like, considered at the time, you know, you know, the end of civilization and all this other stuff. And I just think what humans natural ability to, to add value over just kind of laborious tasks, is ultimately what's going to what's going to come from that. I'm very excited for for the future of AI and what it can do, and, you know, it's going to change a lot of things. It's going to disrupt a lot of a lot of a lot of industries, but I think it's going to create a lot of opportunities as well. Max Matson 41:29 Yeah, absolutely. I've heard it expressed as, you know, machines can can take it from one to 100. But somebody still has to take it from zero to one. Steven Cohn 41:37 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so, you know, and ultimately, look at the end of the day, you know, people buy from people that they know, and they trust whatever it is, like there's like a there's like a there's like a human element to that which will always be there. So I feel like I don't think that it ever goes away. Max Matson 42:02 No, I completely agree. Well, Steven, this has been a fantastic conversation, so good to get to know you a little bit better learn a little bit more about Winware and your background. Do you have anything that you want to plug any, you know, anything coming up? Social media, anything like that? Steven Cohn 42:17 Yeah. I mean, look, where we are right now as a company is we you know, we have we're early but we have some customers we're working with right now. We work with to kind of core customers segment customers grow teams, whether it's product lead growth or product lead sales, and helping them get trial conversion rates and Customer Success teams. And we're seeing really phenomenal results and like the the feedback has been great so far. Soyou know building, keep growing and and adding value. Max Matson 42:53 You heard him you guys go check out Winware! Steven Cohn 42:56 Thank you Max.